3 Phal Species

[SlipperFan]

Small plants, small flowers.

This is my second lindenii, blooming for the first time:

lamelligera -- first time blooming:

I fell in love with this on Peter Linn's "Big Leaf" site. This is the second blooming for this equestris 'Orange 3 Lips':

 

[biothanasis]

Wonderful all 3 of them!!!! The first one is WOW!

 

[Rick]

Is lamelligera one of those debated species like pantherina? Do you know what the common related species is?

For a peloric your equestris is well formed.

 

[Stone]

lindenii!! Its such a beautiful and delicate sp. Well grown Dot. Do you keep this cooler than the others?

 

[SlipperFan]

lindenii!! Its such a beautiful and delicate sp. Well grown Dot. Do you keep this cooler than the others?

Yes -- I tried correcting that twice before I posted it, and thought it was corrected until I just now logged on again and saw that for some reason, the correction didn't take. So i fixed it again. Thanks.

It's growing on the cooler side of my greenhouse, but it's not that much cooler, especially in the Summer. It's placed low to the floor and in shade, so that keeps it a little cooler.

 

[Stone]

Yes -- I tried correcting that twice before I posted it, and thought it was corrected until I just now logged on again and saw that for some reason, the correction didn't take. So i fixed it again. Thanks.

It's growing on the cooler side of my greenhouse, but it's not that much cooler, especially in the Summer. It's placed low to the floor and in shade, so that keeps it a little cooler.

That wasn't a correction Dot...It was an exclamation! as in ''lindenii..Yey!''

 

[JeanLux]

So nice, all 3!!!! But lindenii blooms are my fav. (unfortunately mine are no more willing to show up ; I should try a cooler place for the plant) Jean

 

[cnycharles]

So nice, all 3!!!! But lindenii blooms are my fav. (unfortunately mine are no more willing to show up ; I should try a cooler place for the plant) Jean

try your kitchen windowsill, or any other window that doesn't get direct sun and a little breeze

nice flowers

 

[abax]

I have a pantherina blooming now and it looks very much like the lamelligera. The lip may be slightly different. I'll
have to look at my pantherina again. The one outstanding feature of pantherina that I noticed recently is the fragrance. The blooms have the lovely fragrance of
sweet baby powder. Dot, is your plant fragrant?

 

[W. Beetus]

The last one is quite interesting! Great blooms.

 

[KyushuCalanthe]

Wow, that peloric equestris is something for sure. Wild looking thing!

 

[SlipperFan]

Is lamelligera one of those debated species like pantherina? Do you know what the common related species is?...

I'm sorry, RIck -- I don't know. Maybe Peter Lin knows?

I have a pantherina blooming now and it looks very much like the lamelligera. The lip may be slightly different. I'll
have to look at my pantherina again. The one outstanding feature of pantherina that I noticed recently is the fragrance. The blooms have the lovely fragrance of
sweet baby powder. Dot, is your plant fragrant?

I don't remember a fragrance, but I'll try to remember to check it again tomorrow.

 

[abax]

Either the fragrance takes a while to develop or mine is mounted so high that I didn't notice it at first. Mine has been in bloom almost a month and the lip appears to be
exactly like your photo. I didn't realize there was some
confusion between the two species. Mine came from Dowery Orchids. Dot, did your plant come from Mr. Lin?

BTW, you have to stick your nose right in the bloom to smell it. Sorta up close and personal.

 

[naoki]

Is lamelligera one of those debated species like pantherina? Do you know what the common related species is?

Rick, maybe you are thinking about P. cornu-cervi? P. cornu-cervi is wide-spread, and there are some geographical variation within this species. But, I've heard that there is a genetic study showing P. cornu-cervi and P. lamelligera are differentiated. In P. cornu-cervi (informal) group, there are P. borneensis, P. cornu-cervi, P. lamelligera, P. mannii, and P. pantherina.

 

[cnycharles]

that whole complex is very similar, and pantherina is supposed to be fairly larger than cornu cervi in general. I had heard from some that they felt lamelligera was just a different color form, but I have no opinion or qualification to say what might be what. I used to have a lamelligera 'darkest' I think that came from mark rose in a trade, but the mealybugs did it in

I had a cornu cervi from oak hill that had okay flowers, but the plant was very stiff and looked like it might be tetraploid. was very hard to flower and it eventually died. I had pantherina from two different places and they both eventually died. mannii usually dies no matter where it's purchased from, and another pantherina that I purchased from orchid art was actually described from here as being a very nice cornu cervi. I think I had a borneensis but it doesn't exist anymore. I have a nice alba cornu cervi that grows and flowers, though the buds blast most of the time. so all in all, this complex doesn't like me very much! I haven't spent any money trying to get a nice cc chattaladae because I assumed that it would just die eventually

just a note, abax mentions above that they got plants from dowery orchids. dwayne has always sent me excellent plants, and if he is still in business I would extremely highly recommend him as a vendor! he won't sell plants if there is any question about it's quality or condition

 

[bigleaf]

I can easily tell Phal pantherina apart from Phal cornu-cervi. Lip is very different between these two, as well as flower size. Phal lamelligera is probably the same as Phal deceptrix in trade. Neither is a valid name. Phal borneensis is described and is similar to Phal lamelligera and deceptrix. There are still classification work to be done with Phal cornu-cervi and related species. This is a different task because it's hard to tell from F1 hybrid between them, and their hybrid.

Phal mannii is quite different from Phal cornu-cervi. Inflorescence is not flatten like Phal cornu-cervi. Phal mannii grows like weed. The 'black' or 'Mahagony' type is more difficult to cultivate.

More hybridizing is being done with this group of phalaenopsis species. These thrive in warm weather and blooms in the summer time and flower several times a year.

 

[SlipperFan]

Either the fragrance takes a while to develop or mine is mounted so high that I didn't notice it at first. Mine has been in bloom almost a month and the lip appears to be
exactly like your photo. I didn't realize there was some
confusion between the two species. Mine came from Dowery Orchids. Dot, did your plant come from Mr. Lin?...

If you are referring to lamelligera, I got it from Oak Hill.

I can easily tell Phal pantherina apart from Phal cornu-cervi. Lip is very different between these two, as well as flower size. Phal lamelligera is probably the same as Phal deceptrix in trade. Neither is a valid name. Phal borneensis is described and is similar to Phal lamelligera and deceptrix. There are still classification work to be done with Phal cornu-cervi and related species. This is a different task because it's hard to tell from F1 hybrid between them, and their hybrid.

Phal mannii is quite different from Phal cornu-cervi. Inflorescence is not flatten like Phal cornu-cervi. Phal mannii grows like weed. The 'black' or 'Mahagony' type is more difficult to cultivate.

More hybridizing is being done with this group of phalaenopsis species. These thrive in warm weather and blooms in the summer time and flower several times a year.

Interesting, Peter. So what is the right name for lamelligera?

 

[naoki]

Christenson considers P. lamelligera to be a synonym of P. cornu-cervi. Sweet considered them to be different. I couldn't find the citation of the study which talks about the genetic differentiation. You can have different species even though there are no strong phenotypic differentiation. At the same time, you can't "easily" set a threashold of genetic differentiation to determine species.

But like Peter said, nobody knows the species delineation of this group, and more studies are needed. Taxonomists/systematists should study the natural genetic (and phenotypic) variation with reliable geographic source information and use more scientifically rigorous treatments. Compared with other fields of systematics, some orchids systematists seem to be still alpha-taxonomists in this era of genomics (some of them with rather "interesting" species concepts)...

 

[SlipperFan]

So for now the name on the label stays.

 

[Rick]

So for now the name on the label stays.

That's a sound idea. Kind of like the gardnerii/wilhelminea mess, the combination of label name and source is the only valid way to document the history of the plant once it comes out of the origin country.

My old 2002 Orchid Digest issue is kind of a Phalae species checklist. It doesn't mention lamelligera, but has borneensis (which looks very much like your flower Dot). But it looks like Borneo has an explosion of cornu-cervi forms. So like Paph villosum forms in SE Asia, with every newly explored mountain having its own color form of villosum, maybe we'll see a zillion forms of cornu-cervi varieties as time goes on.

Over at a friends house I saw another pantherina like flower that was a jungle collected plant out of Jo Levy's collection. It's called something else altogether (but I can't recall at present). So I suspect every new mountain and valley will end up with its own species over time.